Game kicks off at 1:30 pm EST. I’ll be here right around then, but as always: feel free to talk amongst yourselves before things start! It’s the Nat Philipps v. Sebastien Haller battle we’ve all been waiting for.
Our discussion around the Salah penalty shows how important both passing the ball into the box and finding space within the box to receive a pass are. Either the defense has to defend you less aggressively and give you more space to make a pass/dribble/shoot or they can play up on you, mistime a tackle, and give up a penalty.
-Shots (on target): Liverpool 9 (5), West Ham 4 (3)
-xG: Liverpool 1.66 (pen: 0.79), West Ham 0.25
-Share of final third passes: Liverpool 76, West Ham 24
-Penalty-area passes: Liverpool 18, West Ham 3
Deserved win in the end for LFC. It really does seem like all the European games are taking an extra toll on teams compared to the typical attrition we'd see in a normal season. WH defended reasonably well, but you can only hold out for so long, especially when the other team doesn't have to respect your counter-attack at all (see: three passes into the box over 90 minutes). Liverpool haven't been the Liverpool of the past couple seasons yet, but their depth is better than it's ever been. VVD, Thiago, Keita, Matip, Fabinho, Ox were all out, and yet they were still able to bring on Milner, Shaq, and Diogo J to flip the game. Thanks, as always, for joining in today. One of these days we'll get another fun game to watch ... right?
I’m biased but I actually think Salah should get more benefit of the doubt when he goes down in the box because he’s shown he is absolute shit at diving realistically
I was just thinking to myself that Nat Phillips has looked really good in the air defensively, but I think that Fornals just showed his limitations. Just not quick enough to both block the path for the deep cross but also step out to eliminate the cut back.
Cresswell broke up a near-1v1 with Mane and then broke up a potential shot from Firmino from about 10 yards out -- all in the span of, like, five seconds.
I'm fully convinced DJ needs to start. He's looking great, but I also think he shakes things up with M-F-S up front who are quite frankly looking... stale =\
Helps to come on against tired legs, as opposed to playing from the start. But he's hit the ground running. Frankly, he's been even better than I expected.
The single best play of the match was that marvelous pass from Shaqiri for the winning goal. Actually, that's one of the best Liverpool moments of the season.
He seems to underperform his xG and xA numbers year over year but this year I think the numbers have actually dipped, granted it's a 10 game sample size so it might just be a slight slump
Don't think he has a long enough history of over/underperforming to say anything confident about his finishing ability. Last year he was way behind his xG but that doesn't mean it'll keep happening. From what I've seen, his numbers are pretty much exactly the same, if not slightly up. I think there's an argument to be made that his role might not be as important on a consistent basis given the new distribution of talent in the squad, but don't think LFC are gonna see his performances as any kind of decline.
I saw his Xg+Xa per 90 typically hovers around 0.7 and he's underperformed his Xg and Xa numbers for the last 2 plus seasons, and in the 10 game sample size this year it's under .5, comparable more to his 2015-16 days. It is a small sample size, but if the slump continues, with the reinforcements they have in tow and as he fades out of his prime, maybe he's no longer the core going forward as they try to build a younger team to make a dynasty
I know creating better chances is always better, but at what point is it more beneficial to start taking shots from outside the box? Surely that has to be about the same xG as a standard cross would produce?
I don't hate the idea, especially since defelctions, the new handball rule, etc. But they're betting on a couple of the more sustained possessions leading to bigger chances.
Yup. I get so annoyed when there's a burst forward and he just does one of those careless-looking passes off the outside of his foot to somebody who is no longer moving forward. And then it jumbles up.
The best thing to root out diving (maybe) would be if refs would actually award penalties based on fouls where the contact wasn't enough to bring someone down, which it seems like they almost never do.
Its called the penalty box... Hands behind your back and dont fuck around... Say what you will, its consistent and is critical to the flow of the game.
His shot-creation is down a decent amount, but he's been more involved in ball progression than ever before. He hasn't been as dangerous in the final-third, but there's not really any world where what he does can be described as "average". Still a one-out-of-one player.
Obviously early but something I’ve been thinking about. If you were going to replace Firmino with Jota in the front 3 & keep the same shape, who plays through the middle?
He's a pretty good passer, and I think he's a good go-and-get-it CB when paired with someone who'll cover for him. But he, uh, is not at his best when defending in his own third.
Our discussion around the Salah penalty shows how important both passing the ball into the box and finding space within the box to receive a pass are. Either the defense has to defend you less aggressively and give you more space to make a pass/dribble/shoot or they can play up on you, mistime a tackle, and give up a penalty.
Shaqiri is gonna win another Fall-on d'Or. What a ball!
Echoes of the pass to TAA mid-week. Good for him! Been out of favor for awhile.
FT stats, via Stats Perform:
-Shots (on target): Liverpool 9 (5), West Ham 4 (3)
-xG: Liverpool 1.66 (pen: 0.79), West Ham 0.25
-Share of final third passes: Liverpool 76, West Ham 24
-Penalty-area passes: Liverpool 18, West Ham 3
Deserved win in the end for LFC. It really does seem like all the European games are taking an extra toll on teams compared to the typical attrition we'd see in a normal season. WH defended reasonably well, but you can only hold out for so long, especially when the other team doesn't have to respect your counter-attack at all (see: three passes into the box over 90 minutes). Liverpool haven't been the Liverpool of the past couple seasons yet, but their depth is better than it's ever been. VVD, Thiago, Keita, Matip, Fabinho, Ox were all out, and yet they were still able to bring on Milner, Shaq, and Diogo J to flip the game. Thanks, as always, for joining in today. One of these days we'll get another fun game to watch ... right?
Next week will be tasty
I have no idea what is happening or what will happen.
Just wait, it will all make sense when Lanzini comes on in the 88th.
Like I said!
Not sure it really effected the play, but it does feel like you shouldn't be able to go studs up into the keeper's chest
Neither do the announcers
I have to assume the keeper contact? Not sure what he's supposed to do there I guess
Pretty sure Mane fouled BOth people lol
They sub off Haller and Liverpool scores soon after. Haller is playing 90 minutes every match going forward and Moyes will never use subs ever again
Somehow this is now true again
I do know they will somehow manage to screw it up
Good reminder of why we should stop doing these fucking chats during Liverpool matches ...
https://nograssintheclouds.substack.com/p/talkin-watfordliverpool/comments
Per the (very good) Qs from Emmanuel earlier, that move is why you don't shoot from 25 yards out.
i was still calling for hendo to rip one over the crossbar
Pouring one out for our boy Scott Dangler ...
That's clumsy...and a very bad dive
I’m biased but I actually think Salah should get more benefit of the doubt when he goes down in the box because he’s shown he is absolute shit at diving realistically
I don't watch enough Liverpool to know what to expect from Salah in that scenario
I disagree with the decision but it's well within the norms for that to be given
Twenty-plus minutes in, and not a single shot from Liverpool. Gonna be tough to make the comeback if that continues.
[insert "pathetic" gif here]
let the nat phillips era begin
I wish Diogo Jota played for my team
Just when you think they are getting too dainty trying to pass it into the net they daintily pass it into the net
is sep van den berg alive?
As far as Klopp is concerned, no he is not.
give the worlds best 16 yo ginger cb since tim ream some respect!
He's dead, Sam. RIP.
And with that pass he can happily go into hibernation until fall
Perisic, a Ryan favorite, with a clutch game tying finish. Will Haller follow suit?
Game needs more Milner.
Game needs something
The opposite of David Moyes
Are we gonna have to ban Liverpool and West Ham from future chats now, too? Will there ever be another fun Premier League game?
And no chance for subs to help West Ham bc Moyes doesn't know that you can make them
Maybe Yarmo on at 89'
West Ham only fun when they go down 3
Leeds Aston Villa, the Bamford breakout game. Any game with those two teams will be fun.
I feel like instead of getting a few crazy fun games sprinkled in throughout the season, we got all the fun games in the first 5 weeks.
You have only to wait until Monday morning. That'll be a cracker
I was just thinking to myself that Nat Phillips has looked really good in the air defensively, but I think that Fornals just showed his limitations. Just not quick enough to both block the path for the deep cross but also step out to eliminate the cut back.
*that Fornals CHANCE
HT Stats, per Stats Perform:
Shots (on target): Liverpool 4 (1), West Ham 1 (1)
xG: Liverpool 0.99 (0.79 for pen), West Ham 0.06
Share of final-third passes: Liverpool 77 percent, West Ham, 23 percent
Penalty-area passes: Liverpool 9, West Ham 2
Cresswell broke up a near-1v1 with Mane and then broke up a potential shot from Firmino from about 10 yards out -- all in the span of, like, five seconds.
He's been amazingly competent at LCB
There are four players in Liverpool's starting lineup wearing a number below 12. The u-11 team I coached in New Mexico would be proud.
RB Albuquerque?
Ajax Santa Fe
I'm fully convinced DJ needs to start. He's looking great, but I also think he shakes things up with M-F-S up front who are quite frankly looking... stale =\
Helps to come on against tired legs, as opposed to playing from the start. But he's hit the ground running. Frankly, he's been even better than I expected.
You and the crew need to do a "Do you rate him?" Joe Gomez edition
smfh you're right
BIG BAD SHAQ!
The single best play of the match was that marvelous pass from Shaqiri for the winning goal. Actually, that's one of the best Liverpool moments of the season.
Salah's pass to Mane right there with DJ the obvious choice on his left looked very much like a "you'll get your shot later, kid" to me
I thought the same thing ... and then hated myself for thinking it.
Me too =(
who needs thiago when you have shaqiri!
J!
shaqiri should do curls pre cap like vernon davis
Competent West Ham is the strangest West Ham
Unrelated question - does Messi still leave Barca in the summer since Bartomeu and the board resigned?
Doubt it now, but depends on how the season goes and who becomes president, I think.
Liverpool's schedule from now till the Fulham game is must watch
Atalanta, m.a.a.n city, foxes, atalanta again, brighton, ajax, wolves and then danish liverpool
Every time I look at the schedule my hands start sweating
Do we think Chompers gets slowly phased out over the course of this season before he turns up at PSG and scores 3 a game?
Too many games to phase anyone out. Also, his xG+xA numbers are the same as they've always been.
He seems to underperform his xG and xA numbers year over year but this year I think the numbers have actually dipped, granted it's a 10 game sample size so it might just be a slight slump
Don't think he has a long enough history of over/underperforming to say anything confident about his finishing ability. Last year he was way behind his xG but that doesn't mean it'll keep happening. From what I've seen, his numbers are pretty much exactly the same, if not slightly up. I think there's an argument to be made that his role might not be as important on a consistent basis given the new distribution of talent in the squad, but don't think LFC are gonna see his performances as any kind of decline.
I saw his Xg+Xa per 90 typically hovers around 0.7 and he's underperformed his Xg and Xa numbers for the last 2 plus seasons, and in the 10 game sample size this year it's under .5, comparable more to his 2015-16 days. It is a small sample size, but if the slump continues, with the reinforcements they have in tow and as he fades out of his prime, maybe he's no longer the core going forward as they try to build a younger team to make a dynasty
at least play him at CB
Nice of Jota to pay tribute to James Milner with that celebration.
Thats a foul? on the keeper?
I feel like Antonio is built for these minutes... Haller is a bit gassed
So who's the first Liverpool sub? Jota? Minamino? Milner?
Power cube. It's still October
There can only be one.
I know creating better chances is always better, but at what point is it more beneficial to start taking shots from outside the box? Surely that has to be about the same xG as a standard cross would produce?
The average cross leads to a goal something like 1 percent of the time. A shot from 25 yards out is at least double that likelihood.
Then shouldn't Liverpool try peppering the goal with shots? Especially in a game like this where they have only 6 through 67 minutes.
I don't hate the idea, especially since defelctions, the new handball rule, etc. But they're betting on a couple of the more sustained possessions leading to bigger chances.
Liverpool needs a Lee Cattermole, West Ham already have two of them: Mark Noble and ol' Snodgrass
His name is Nat Phillips.
are we sure he's a Cattermole and not a new Lovren?
Is there any difference?
Lovren was actually very good midweek for Zenit
In unrelated news...gervinho still plays?!
Yes! And he's still kinda decent!
Tearing up inter apparently. Wild
the headband is out of control
In some games, Firmino looks so dang slow on the ball. I know he isn't slow or lollygagging, but he is a weird one to watch sometimes.
Fun when it comes off, frustrating when it doesn't.
Yup. I get so annoyed when there's a burst forward and he just does one of those careless-looking passes off the outside of his foot to somebody who is no longer moving forward. And then it jumbles up.
But other times his passing is marvelous.
That's a pretty great pass from Jones
Appreciate the honesty of not protesting the decision.
And yet the announcer is having a meltdown over Salah diving ...
The best thing to root out diving (maybe) would be if refs would actually award penalties based on fouls where the contact wasn't enough to bring someone down, which it seems like they almost never do.
Its called the penalty box... Hands behind your back and dont fuck around... Say what you will, its consistent and is critical to the flow of the game.
This feels like exactly the kind of game we hoped to keep Thiago fit for
Agreed, but it's also the exact kind of game that Liverpool have had no problem with over the past two seasons.
Liverpool fans, however...these are the heartburn games to deal with
Has TAA been average/bad by the stats this year?
He's felt a step or two off all year from just watching.
His shot-creation is down a decent amount, but he's been more involved in ball progression than ever before. He hasn't been as dangerous in the final-third, but there's not really any world where what he does can be described as "average". Still a one-out-of-one player.
I think the lack of preseason hurt him a bit but by all accounts he was very good midweek
That was the first time I was impressed this season. But it was against Midtjylland
West Hams Defense is VERY prepared today. I think around 80 we'll start to see the jelly legs
They look good, although it helps to score early and then defending with no fewer than six men at all times.
Get xherdan in this game...maybe get a shot on goal before the end of the first half...
Obviously early but something I’ve been thinking about. If you were going to replace Firmino with Jota in the front 3 & keep the same shape, who plays through the middle?
I imagine it might be a slightly more fluid formation, but Salah seems like one who'd be in the center.
I agree. I like Jota better on the left but probably play him on the right to keep the Mane-Robertson partnership
Flappyhandski is going to win this for Liverpool.
Can someone explain to me what Joe Gomez does?
He's a pretty good passer, and I think he's a good go-and-get-it CB when paired with someone who'll cover for him. But he, uh, is not at his best when defending in his own third.
I'm probably the only West Ham fan here, so apologies in advance for my Arthur Masuaku hot takes
Don't apologize. We welcome them!
He's...kinda good?
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